For the pupose of discussing the Cold Mountain Resort project and all related matters - I have made a new blog if you want to discuss the American Resort, please see the American Resort Issues page.
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ok found it - did you ses the private messages in your inbox
ReplyDeleteYes, quite a bit to catch up with.
ReplyDeleteI hashed this together in half an hour - I felt we needed somewhere to reconvene as quickly as possible. The blog can be deleted as and when. However, Blogger (the host) is owned by Google and will not be pushed around with threats of legal action the way the property forum was. That said, let me reiterate that defammatory remarks must not be made, and I'll edit any comments that contain them. It's for our own good.
ok agreed - by the way - check your email - just noticed your forwarded emails re blogs / threads etc only reached investors up to emails with letter beginning with 'g' i've emailed you a full list to your hotmail. May explain why we had such poor response
ReplyDeleteThey had to go in batches of three, can't get 100 in one address line. They all went.
ReplyDeletethanks very much for setting up this blog king john. i only found it after seeing your post on the wild foxes thread. haven't received any of the emails that you have sent out.
ReplyDeleteso fellow investors - whats our next move in view of recent developments, or are we going to sit tight as planned to Oct 31st ?
ReplyDeleteComore, can you post here or PM me at the property board your email? I don't know why it didn't go in the main batch.
ReplyDeleteI am curious to know how much is at stake here, if people are prepared to share. I am only in it for one slice of the pie, so £2900.
ReplyDeleteI cannot, myself proceed with anything without giving Kevin time as agreed as per my estimate of when he'd have received my docs. However, I see no harm in laying the groundwork.
There would be cost involved in getting a public meeting room, so if anyone happens to have a large room in their home they'd be prepared to allow us into, that would be handy.
In terms of the costs involved: we all have a share in this, but the amounts vary radically. We either all stump up the same amount, or we operate on a percentage of our outlay, ie the person with two stakes pays 50% less than the person with four. The former penalises the lower stake holders, the latter penalises the higher stake holders.
We would need to agree on this.
I should add that I am not writing off the possibility that Kevin Stillmock will come through with our refunds as agreed.
I'm in for two units - will happily go along with what the group agrees
ReplyDeleteIf anyone has office space - meeting room we can use let us know - i may be able to help Covent Gdn based - please don't hold me to this yet though
Likewise I'm secretly keeping my fingers crossed as well.
By the way where is everyone ?? - the more involved the easier this will be
could we meet at a central london library free of charge? RAB
ReplyDeleteking john - where can i access your email address (i'd rather not post my own address here)?
ReplyDeletein a strange development, the refund form i mailed to gwm's los angeles office (the correct address) at the end of july was returned to my office in the mail a couple of days ago. a person called serdar ergalu, on behalf of kevin stillmock, told my secretary that this is the first such case he/she had heard of. the person also said that the faxed version of my form would be pulled up and 'acted on', but also asked that my secretary return the hard copy to the same address 'via mail not requiring signature for delivery'. maybe i'm an eternal optimist, but i was actually encouraged by the suggestion that my form might be 'acted on'.
as far as a meeting goes, i'm based overseas and returning home from the uk on sunday.
by the way, in answer to your earlier question, like you i have only one unit at stake.
ReplyDeleteI am owed £5000 by Mr Stillmock and GWM for 2 deposits on 2 apartments in the American Resort. I faxed and posted the refund forms at the beginning of August to GWM and Arc Properties. I have chased them up with numerous emails but have heard nothing. Can I join in your meeting when you have one or is it purely for the Cold Mountain investors?
ReplyDeleteThanks
Sorry, for the 'anonymous' posting above but I am new to blogging. You can contact me on waitingstill@hotmail.co.uk
ReplyDeleteThanks
If you were posting on the Overseas Property forum, in the "comment as" menu selct "name/URL" and type your handle from the forum.
ReplyDeleteI imagine that any legal action will involve only Cold Mountain, as the vast majority here are involved in that project.
Arc sold 250 units in Cold Mountain (CMR) at £2900 and 200 in American Resort (ART)at £2500 for each reservation. Im owed for 2 CMR and one ART and with the rest of the poeople i introduced to ARC its about 19 units (only one of which is in ART) so thats £54700. But i dont think you need to find out from every one Its quite clear we are talking around 1 milllion. Arc made it clear any one continuing will be on their own so how many would have been made enough to continue. I also think there is going to be another twist but i dont want to say so openly. King John Ill be in contact.
ReplyDeletehello all , can anyone update me on the latest regarding gwm and the cold mountain project i have been on hols for the last few weeks and reading the forum i feel ive missed something important ? i reserved 2 x units .
ReplyDeletecheers andrew
By the way has any one asked the question why GWM still has our money? According to our contracts it should have been passed on to the developer after 30 days. Perhaps that tells us something!!
ReplyDeleteOh I think a lot of people have been effected in American Resort but GWM havn't slipped and given out their emials. Also any legal action will have to be co-ordinated with ARC as only they can help us prove things like the November dead line for the refunds being extended. I know we have emails but we dont have anything from GWM giving the extention. The only problem is ARC told me we are the victims not them so we will have to initiate legal proceedings and they also seem to want to take the back seat.
ReplyDeleteWell I've filled out the refund forms faxed and posted them to Arc and GWM back in August and had email confirmation from both , and guess what , 28 business days have come and gone and
ReplyDeleteNo refund has come my way !!!!!!!!!!!
Why is this , and continally email both and you,ve guessed it
No sign of any reply !!!!!!!!
Why is this ????????
I also have concerns that someone , GWM or not has a copy of my signature and my bank details !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who did the fax number and two PO boxes belong to ?????
I only hope it was GWM and no one else
I can only hope that my details remain confidential
More food for thought
"Also any legal action will have to be co-ordinated with ARC as only they can help us prove things like the November dead line for the refunds being extended. I know we have emails but we dont have anything from GWM giving the extention."
ReplyDeleteAn email is a legal document as I understand it. Obviously Arc doesn't have the money, but they assured it's safety and must have a similar assurance from Kevin Stillmock - they would not have been so grossly negligent as to make an assumption.
That needs confirmation, though, but it would be a terrible liability for Arc if there WASN'T a similar assurance from Kevin Stillmock.
Has anybody had this confirmation (or otherwise) from Arc, that they have Stillmock's written assurance?
ReplyDeleteGuys - if only a few of us can meet soon for a quick heads up i think it would be for the best. We all seek the same goal and i am concerned by the lack of response from our friends.
ReplyDeleteSometimes when i take time off work i pre date emails, i also leave auto messages in case i'm missed - think
Can't make a meeting , but will be interested to join with you in any legal proceedings, should that become neccessary :-(. Will provide you an email address for me KJ, so you can communicate off-forum if you need to.
ReplyDeleteHi All,
ReplyDeleteMy business partner and I seem to be in the same situation as you all. We have 3 units reserved at a total investment of £7500.
We would very much like to be included in the meeting and starting legal proceedings with you.
We have sent several emails to both Arc and Kevin but no answer form either parties. Kevin has also refrained from giving us any further contact details rather than just his gmail account.
We are available to meet anywhere in London. Please advise me of date and time. my email address is edd@focalproperty.co.uk
regards
PS - does anyone know if Arc are still operating out of their Putney office??? I am thinking to visit their office unannounced to see if i can get some answers as they wont even pick up the phone to us now!
ReplyDeleteI think Arc will ultimately prove to be a key player in resloving this. They will know far more than we do and their help may prove invaluable. It would be great if Alistair could drop us all an email to prove he's still around and tell us what GWM intentions are and if he's heard of refunds going through.
ReplyDeleteEdd. I believe Arc no longer have their Fulham office. The base seems to be Cambridge area now, but no idea of an exact address.
ReplyDeleteI am based in Ireland so will be unable to attend a London based meeting in person. I agree that we should see out the cooling period until end Oct, but there is no harm in doing the legal ground work now in advance.
ReplyDeleteI would agree that ARC would be quite instrumental in helping to resolve this. I cannot help but feel that they are at least trying to maintain some level of professional integrity in all this. We will know if the £400 is received by them. Anyone received anything from them yet?
ReplyDeleteI have invested in some CM units and have had confirmation by both ARC and GWM that the hard copies of my refund request form had been received. Interestingly, the GWM hard copy i sent arrived back in my letterbox "return to sender" as addressee was "unknown at address" (LA address used). This was a week after receiving their confirmation!
28 days have since passed with no money, and no reply to emails. I think waiting till the end of October is a bit rich. A date and time should be set to meet via the cc'd email list we all have.
Fred.
I agree with Fred.
ReplyDeleteI believe that it is more of a co-incidence that we are all having this trouble with Arc and GWM.
I suggest that we initiate legal action - any thoughts?
edd, Fred - I did a bit of tweaking of your comments, removing a spot of hyperbole. I'll update my post at the top with a bit more detail on what is acceptable.
ReplyDeleteRemember the way the property forum thread went, folks.
I managed to get the ARC property address off of the previously dissolved forum. If you type in specific details of individual postings to that website you can still partially view them on the Google preview page.
ReplyDeleteARC PROPERTY INTERNATIONAL LIMITED
27 HIGH STREET, BARRINGTON CAMBRIDGE CAMBRIDGESHIRE CB2 5QX
Company No. 05537291
fred,
ReplyDeletei also had the hard copy of my refund form (which i sent to the LA address on 30 july) returned to me marked 'addressee unknown'. this was about a week ago. a gwm employee informed me that this was the only such case they knew of. interesting that it has happened to you as well.
I've tried calling GWM today, but keep getting a message to say that the # is no longer available. Is anyone else managing to get the # to work, or get a reply? (Just wondering if it is me or a temporary problem.)
ReplyDeleteI've just mailed out all c.100 email addresses to you all.
ReplyDeleteYes, I sent them to everyone. They had to go in three batches, so don't worry if you only see about 35 recipients in the recipient field, all the others got theirs.
If you're sending mass emails - which is a very combersome way of communicating - please ensure that everyone on the list is copied in.
If you DIDN'T get the list email, let me know.
By the way, I have the old property forum thread saved to my hard disc - I snagged it all before they deleted it. I can look up anything if anybody wants it particularly.
I think reading the comments on here that we are being very generous in waiting until October.
ReplyDeleteI remember a couple of guys commenting that they knew lawyers i think we should at least start passing info to them to get them up to speed - if we're all agreed.
At my work when the phones ring we answer them and emails are replied to - after all we're an 'operating' company and phonecalls and emails generate business and enhance communication - i think this may be the simple point we're all missing.
The health of a UK company can be checked via Companies House - Arc's accounts three months late and Annual Return also overdue see link below
ReplyDeletehttp://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/2b1725e3cffcad4eec0dea67bb163db1/compdetails
The health of a US company can be checked via their authorities i will do this tommorrow and post my findings
Could you email me as well please King John?! edd@focalproperty.co.uk
ReplyDeleteAm I right in thinking that GWM were acting as Custodian to the project(s)? Does this mean that it should be regulated by the equivalent to the Financial Services Authority? Maybe a complaint should be made to them if anyone knows how?!
ReplyDeleteGWM aka Kevin Stillmock was the "Guardian", whatever that exactly means - I haven't the foggiest and, I think in keeping with everyone else, never bothered to ask.
ReplyDeleteEmail added, edd.
Well as I understand it (which is probably wrong), the guardian or custodian should be responsible for the safe keeping of our funds and should therefore be independent from the development. This has clearly not been the case.
ReplyDeleteGiven that GWM are a financial services company I am sure that it must be governed or regulated. It would be useful to find out what the US equivalent of the FSA is.
!!!!!! I sent refund forms via recorded delivery and normal post. Both have come back saying the address is not recognised, yet kevin said to me a few weeks ago that the hard copy was recieved. I think he is taking us for a ride. Wonder what will happen next
ReplyDeleteHello, any one know why GWM still have our money as pointed out earlier by shuaib the contract states it should have been given to the developer in 30 days!!
ReplyDeleteGWM phone number no longer works as per their website
ReplyDeleteAlistair's mobile is switched off with the message mail box full
And all email traffic has stopped
Not looking good people
I'm trying to source a US lawyer and I'm also asking about a US version of the FSA. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.
ReplyDeleteOK great
ReplyDeleteAny one contacted :-
ReplyDeleteMR ARVE HAUGSETER OF ERE AS (DEVELOPER) ?
a.haugseter@ere.no
tel :- +4795112011
Maybe he may have some idea where the money has gone
Hi all.
ReplyDeleteReading the above I think its time for some action. I had an email form Alistair at Arc yesterday. He has simply stated that as far as he is aware investments should be refunded… sometime?! It was a very vague email and he hasn’t offered any information about contact details/addresses for him or Charles at Arc as I requested.
We need to meet ASAP. This has to be ASAP before anyone disappears completely. Is anyone around This Friday either lunchtime or after work? How about Farringdon way? That’s pretty central. Does anyone know Smith's of Smithfield. This is a very large bar. You can’t miss it!
Good idea mb4807, let us all know how you get on with the American FSA and the Lawyer ASAP.
King John – I am new to this blog. Could you email me the previous blog you have on your hard drive. I would appreciate this to update me as to what is going on!
Let me know people!!
Not having much joy with a US version of the FSA. The SEC would be closest, but they specialise in Securities-based companies. There is something called the Better Business Bureau (http://welcome.bbb.org/) where you can make complaints about businesses and they seek to resolve them for you, but it looks a bit lightweight for what we need I think.
ReplyDeleteI have a contact in the DEA who may be able to point us in the right direction re the FSA type enqs. I'll try and contact him tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteRight Guys,
ReplyDeleteI managed to get hold of Alistair on the phone. In a nutshell he is as much in the dark as us. He can’t get hold of Kevin Stillmock. David Stabb (Kevin's solicitor) is in regular contact with Alistair. All David knows is that as far as he is aware refunds should have been resolved within deadlines set although he isn’t involved in the refund process.
Alistair doesn’t know why we can’t get hold of Kevin or what he has done/or planning to do with our investments.
In a nutshell - Arc have stopped trading temporarily but are trying their best to get an answer for us. Alistair has also stated that if we do not get our investment back that it would be up to us to seek legal advice against GWM (which is owned by Kevin Stillmock). Arc accept no legal responsibility but are trying to help us resolve this issue.
I hope this clears things up. We need to appoint a legal ambassador to start proceedings and also notify the authorities so see if we can salvage our investments.
Agreed - i can meet any evening this week or next if others can anywhere in Central London
ReplyDeleteKingjohn, could you please include me in the emails on this mattter: b_nipper@hotmail.com
ReplyDeleteking john - could you include me also please: jt404@cam.ac.uk
ReplyDeleteAre none of you on the list already? Wierd.
ReplyDeleteI'll send out the full list once more - apologies to those of you who already have it.
Can I repeat, if you're mass-emailing please ensure it goes to all 100+ people. The email you'll receive from me will have about 35 addresses in the recipient field as that's as much as Hotmail allows. If various thirds only of people get emails it won't half get confusing.
OK, everyone should have the full list.
ReplyDelete"David Stabb (Kevin's solicitor) is in regular contact with Alistair. All David knows is that as far as he is aware refunds should have been resolved within deadlines set although he isn’t involved in the refund process."
ReplyDeleteThat Arc is in contact with Stillmock's lawyer is certainly encouraging.
"Arc accept no legal responsibility but are trying to help us resolve this issue."
Hmm...well, we do have our only confirmation of reservation fee security from Arc. One naturally assumes Arc has the same confirmation from Stillmock, but Arc shouldn't be banging the "accept no responsibility" drum too loudly just yet in the event they DON'T have such confirmation from Stillmock. I'm pretty confident they do, but haven't breached the subject yet.
I have just read e mails that suggest that ARC are invoicing NC for our reservation fees. I am very angry. Based on 250 units sold ARC and Norman have pocketted £100,000 of our hard earned money, disbanded without telling us, then virtually left us on our own with zero financial penalty to themselves. I wonder if the delay in reaching an agreement was Norman trying to protect his money? I find this unethical by any business standards I subscibe to, I will be investigating if illegal aswell.
ReplyDeleteThey've agreed to refund us their share, though. I don't expect our £400 with Arc to be the stumbling block here.
ReplyDeleteI'll be away from next Monday for a week, back the 14th. I'll be up for moving this on at that point, as my 28 days will be up.
We'll need to establish who we use, and what and how we pay.
alastair informed me that arc would be in a position to pay out the £400 some time in october. i hope he's not going to insist that arc will not issue refunds until gwm have fulfilled their side of the bargain.
ReplyDeleteKJ how can ARC be refunding us "their" share if they are invoicing NC? They seem to have kept "their" share and passed the liability onto NC. This won't have cost ARC a penny, indeed they are up by 6 figures plus
ReplyDeleteKing John when you get back I suggest we all meet asap - this is becoming farcical now, ARC and GWM must be held accountable end of story.
ReplyDeleteMy 28 days will also be long gone - not that anybody has replied to let me know if they've actually received the refund requests in the 1st place !
Alastair communicated his position to me a few weeks ago as follows:
ReplyDelete"Arc Property expects to be in a position to make our payment in respect of
Cold Mountain towards the end of September or early October. Until recently
we had not been expecting to make this payment and had made no financial
plans for it. As you can imagine given the large number of investors
involved in the Cold Mountain project the total amount we are offering to
return to investors is substantial and as such it will take a little time
for us to put the necessary arrangements in place."
I have to say that he has been quite helpful when I have contacted him, and does not give the impression that he is trying to pull a fast one. I suppose we'll know soon enough ...
I received an e mail from Sottwhyte, ARC had said they were invoicing NC for their part of the refund i.e £400. Asuming they, NC, pay we, the investors will receive the refund. So we are at the mercy of NC paying ARC. Alastair Norman seems to have profitted from £100,000 upwards. What happens if NC don't pay ARC?
ReplyDelete"KJ how can ARC be refunding us "their" share if they are invoicing NC?"
ReplyDeleteI don't see Arc's part being dependent on the developer's cooperation. We should get THAT part irrespective of NC.
I hope.
"I have to say that he has been quite helpful when I have contacted him, and does not give the impression that he is trying to pull a fast one."
Agreed. Let's not start ragging on Arc just yet.
An URGENT update from the developer :-
ReplyDeleteThe whole situation has been extremely bad for us as well. The truth is that we started the project under totally wrong conditions, like payment schedules, quality of the resort, timelines, actually buyers and so on (I can just continue). We have never signed the sales/purchase agreements, reservation contract or anything, this was done by somebody else without our knowledge.
We have chosen to be quiet because we are really hoping that GWM will refund the money, but it has been hard to see all the stupid things that has been said about us.
At this point we don’t have any legal issues with GWM or ARC. I know Alastair from ARC has started some investigations around GWM, but please discuss this with him.
There are so many issues around this cooperation, but the main thing from our side is that North Capital have never signed contracts, never received any money, just ended up with bad publicity. We tried for a long time to find solutions, but there was to many issues around promises given without our knowledge. The project and our company has suffered a lot because of the situation, and our financial losses are very high. These days we are working with external investors to get more capital to our company and the project, something that never had happen if the project presented in the beginning was “real”. We have not yet taken any legal actions to cover our losses, because we believe that it will create more bad publicity, and even make it harder for GWM’s clients to get their refund.
You claim that we have appointed GWM as Guardian of the funds, something that is totally wrong, we have never done that. The company that have signed contracts and are in possession of your money is GWM, and ARC was given some commission.
Why GWM are making excuses instead of payments you have to take with them, they have signed a contract where they obligate themselves to refund the money.
At the end we will say that (as far as we know) Arc property have done everything in their power to solve the situation, and I believe Alastair can give you updates on what they (and we) have done tried to find a solution.
This fills me with no confidence at all
ReplyDeleteCan I believe anybody
It is very difficult if they don't supply any evidence
I friend of mine found out that Charles Rodger is a fellow Director at Arc
email :-
charles@arc-property.co.uk
We need phone numbers and addresses of these people asap
Anybody in the Barrington , Cambridge area able to help
Also does anyone have US contacts that could contact GWMs bank to confirm that thay still have funds in the account they we transfered to ?
These days we are working with external investors to get more capital to our company and the project, something that never had happen if the project presented in the beginning was “real”.
ReplyDeleteThe word ''real'' concerns me
"You claim that we have appointed GWM as Guardian of the funds, something that is totally wrong, we have never done that."
ReplyDeleteAs I understand it, it was when the original developer (I think was called ERE AS) was in place that GWM were custodian.
From comments I have seen I cannot blame North Capital at all for this fiasco as they have been acting in good faith and have been caught up in the problems like the rest of us.
I understand that North Capital are still keen to build the resort and I hope that they do not suffer as a result of our problems.
Anony, how did you come by that? Was it an email from NC in response to an enquiry?
ReplyDeleteIf it was an email, could you circulate it to the rest of us?
I have just received this from Arve Haugseter of North Capital. He seems very genuine and has seemingly had problems with GWM as well.
ReplyDeleteI’m so sorry to hear that nothing is happen, and I can promise you that the whole situation creating a lot of problems for us as well. People are attacking us for money that we never have received, there are contracts that we never have signed and I can just continue. For us the most important is that GWM clients get refunded, after that we will consider to take legal action.
Right now I’m in no position to help you out, but please try to discuss the matter with Alastair at ARC property. He is for sure doing all in his power to find a solution on the situation.
Thank you for keeping me updated, I hope the situation will be sorted out as soon as possible.
KJ please help me out here. I understood from ARC we were getting back £400 per reservation. If they have invoiced NC for this, what exactly are ARC paying? When you said we will get ARC's part irrespective of NC what do you mean?> What then are ARC invoicing NC for, ARC's e mail suggests we will get the funds Sept--Oct---now Nov if NC pay them. I'm confused. To me it seems ARC are invoicing NC for our reservation fees, we will get it IF NC pay ARC, therefore ARC contribute nothing and keep the £100,000. Am I, (and others wrong) p.s How did you get the name of KS lawyer. Thanksk . Gre Dykes
ReplyDeleteConfused also....what are ARC exactly invoicing NC for? Sept then Oct then Nov, ring any bells? As for "ragging" ARC who got us into this? Me and my group are over £60,000 down
ReplyDeleteI've not had any confirmation that our £400 refunds from Arc are dependent on North Capital, that's all I'm saying. The rest is speculation. Arc has in principle agreed to an unconditional refund of that money.
ReplyDeleteIt's getting confusing talking to various people under the "anonymous" handle.
To type under a distinct name (like most people are doing), select "name/URL" and choose an ID. That ID will REMAIN in place in the drop down menu for your next visit, so you only need choose an ID once thuswise.
If more and more people go on selecting "anonymous" people will simply give up in confusion and our discussion will stall.
Gre (Greg?) Dykes - I have reposted your comment with the name you signed off with. Hope that’s OK with you.
It'd be worthwhile looking at setting up a meeting later this month for those interested. If not then, whenever is possible subsequently - no great rush.
ReplyDeleteThere are two or three of our number looking into the legal representation issue. Their presence would be vital, as the purpose would be to establish 1) the legal team we use and 2) the potentially megalithically complex payment issue, with regard to recovering our money from Kevin Stillmock >>>IF<<< he has still not resurfaced by then.
We'd need a venue which is not a bar with disco background music, most likely in London.
I suppose we'd need to bring all the "documentation" we have.
I cannot realistically make Tuesdays or Wednesdays.
If we set a time and place, I could email all the investors and see who else is interested, meaning all those lazy asses who've never bothered to respond anywhere.
Say if you're up for it, ie. you're not freaked out at the prospect of meeting effectively anonymous online acquaintances and will not pull out.
Love to meet up KJ, but unfortunately I'm no longer residing in the UK. But please keep me updated re: outcome and any new developments.
ReplyDeleteHappy to send any documentation etc that may be needed if required.
Must say, thanks goodness for that cc'd email, and your prompt blogging action KJ!
Happy to help from my distance as needed
An associate of mine visited 525a Fulham Road the other day (Arc's old offices)
ReplyDeleteThe landlord Alpa Accountants invited him in and explained that noone from ARC had picked up their post for about 2 months
He was shown a cardboard box with over a dozen unopened letters in some with han written addresses on several
Some of these maybe hard copies of the refund letters
I can only suggest that you contact the landlord if you want to pick these up yourselves
Something else that Alastair didn't tell us
So to sum up
ReplyDeleteARC , ERE / NORTH CAPITAL were happy for us to send the funds to GWM in early June 2007 per the signed agreement form
The money doesn't appear to have been transferred to ERE/North Capital
But neither ARC nor ERE/North Capital communicated this to us
We have only recently found this out
Do we all agree that this is what actually happened ?
KJ Last time I'll raise this, but I'm still not clear. U say u have not had confirmation that ARC reservation fee is dependant on NC. What then have ARC invoiced NC for? I understand that NC are now covering our reservation fees, Norman said "asuming they (NC) honour the agreement", they, ARC, will refund. Therefore I read that NC are covering our reservation fees, and so the return of our reservation fees ARE dependant on NC, if NC don't pay then ARC won't. It seems, to repeat, that Norman and ARC have kept £100,000 reservation fees and passed this liability onto NC. For us it is an important issue since our reservation fees alone are £8,000. Yes I'm happy to meet.
ReplyDeleteAlso rather disappointed no mail picked up by ARC for 2 months. What was the point of sending hard copy refund to that address? Alastair told me that all mail was being collected.
I can confirm that Cold Mountain is currently being marketed by Goodson & Red (MD - Darren Goodson) for details see web
ReplyDeleteI place no blame on them in regard of our current dilema
I wonder if additional units to ours are being sold ?
I understand that NC are now covering our reservation fees, Norman said "asuming they (NC) honour the agreement", they, ARC, will refund. Therefore I read that NC are covering our reservation fees, and so the return of our reservation fees ARE dependant on NC, if NC don't pay then ARC won't."
ReplyDeleteIf Arc have unequivocally stated that the £400 chunks back to us are dependant on NC's return of them to Arc, then yes, obviously it is dependent. I've not had this from Arc, though. All I've had is an agreement to refund the money later in the year.
Why would Arc send THEIR profit to North Capital? These £400 chunks were their commission. It's a stretch to assume Arc kept the 100K, and are now invoicing NC for that same money.
KJ. Yes you've now got my point. I received circular e mailfrom Scott Whyte, ARC have written to him and said "ARC property have negotiated an agreement with North Capital desigend to cover our payment to investors. We have recently invoiced North Capital for the required amount and expect them to honour their obligations. Assuming they comply with the terms we (ARC) should be in a position to make payments to clients late October/early November"
ReplyDeleteSeveral investors have received this, guess you have not. Can you see my point now, yes it does read that ARC have invoiced NC for our reservation fees, and therefore they have KEPT the £100,000 AND invoiced NC for this amount.
Therefore according to Norman's wording we are now dependant on NC paying ARC i.e ARC will pay "asuming NC comply".
Because £8,000 of our refund is reservation fee it is an important point to us.
This is why I,m so aghast, if you had received the e mail it suggests that ARC kept the reservation fee AND are asking NC to bail them out, us getting the money back is therefore linked to and dependant on NC.
If ARC are not invoicing NC for the full £400 reservation fee which they seem to have kept, again what are they invoicing NC for?
Greg
According to Alastair:
ReplyDelete"Each of the parties has made various concessions during this negotiation process in order that the matter can be resolved and a satisfactory solution can be presented to clients. One of these concessions is that Arc Property will be undertaking to contribute £400 per unit to any investor wishing to receive a refund thus allowing investors to receive a 100% refund without GWM ending up out of pocket."
There has never been any suggestion by Alastair that the £400 payment was contingent on a future cross-concession by NC. He has led me to believe that the reason why the £400 would not be paid until late September / early October is that each £400 commission was treated by Arc as income and therefore not held on account, so there would be inevitable delays in getting the money together.
Contrast with GWM, who are on the record as stating that they are holding our money on trust.
To bear in mind also that NC and GWM are in complete breach of our pre-reservation agreement, signed by all three of us. Someone said it wasn't worth the paper it's printed on, but it is still a signed document.
ReplyDeleteThe Arc / NC business is confusing, but I'm not personally prioritising it. My main concern is to get my lion's share from GWM.
Folks,
Anonymous comments which contain any inflammatory remarks will just be zapped. If you have the courtesy to post under some form of unique identity I will (painstakingly and at time cost) re-format and re-post it on your behalf.
But what are ARC invoicing NC for?
ReplyDeleteThe e mail received by some/many of us suggests NC are paying the £400 reservation fee not ARC.
It is important to us since it represents £8,000
Dykes
Comore your wrong. The e mail from Alastair Norman is absolutely contingent on NC.
ReplyDeleteI can only presume that some of us have'nt received the e mail. Those that have have rquested clarification.
It is the principle of our reservation fee being dependant on NC that is as gaulling as the amount
Kevin Stillmock.
ReplyDeleteIt appears that Kevin Stillmock is / or was recently in Romania as he posted this early September 2008.
http://looktravel.blogspot.com/2008/09/living-charmed-life-in-europe.html
He has an email of Kevin.stillmock@romaniareport.com
Greg, I know 8K isn't chicken feed, but we do have bigger fish to fry I think.
ReplyDeleteKing John could you please email me (alastair@arc-property.co.uk) or provide me with your email address.
ReplyDeleteMany thanks,
Alastair
-----
Arc Property will not be responding to comments on this blog but is happy to communicate directly with investors.
Happy to meet anytime in October
ReplyDeleteWell, that makes three of us.
ReplyDeleteFor your viewing pleasure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdaDzw9Noxk
very moving.
ReplyDeleteSorry I can't meet with you all face to face, but keep me informed of progress via the forum or email.
ReplyDeleteMy investigations in to a US lawyer have not resulted in anything positive yet. My colleague did say though that the case may not need to be in the US. There may be reason for it to be UK-based or even Romanian. Perhaps someone could start looking in to that in some more detail. Maybe we just need to ring a reputable law firm such as Clifford Chance or Eversheds to get the ball rolling...
As to sharing of costs of any litigation, should it be required, I would think it should go on a 'cost per unit'. So, those with more units pay more. We'll also need to agree how much we are each willing to put in for each unit, such as 10%, 25% etc. If the refund does not come, then obviously there is a limit to how much money one is willing to spend to try and get it.
Somewhat out the blue, I just received a receipt of documentation email from Global Wealth Managers, saying my stuff was being "actioned on". Anyone else?
ReplyDeleteI also recently received an e-mail to the effect that my refund request had been received and is "being processed".
ReplyDeleteThis is encouraging. I hope I'll receive one too. Will let you know if/when I do.
ReplyDeletenothing yet for me
ReplyDeleteI received an email confirmation that my refund is in process.
ReplyDeleteFor those who have, who did you receive it from?
Kevin Stillmock
ReplyDelete"For those who have, who did you receive it from?"
ReplyDeleteOne Serdar Ergalu.
I just realised something, you remember when Kevin Stillmock said to someone he wasn't even aware of the last GWM post on the property forum, something which caused our general confusion? I just took a look, and it was made by this fellow, Serdar, not Kevin Stillmock.
It may well be that none of those forum posts were made by Kevin, which is good news, as Kevin is the one in charge.
Well i'll feel far more relaxed about the whole thing after i receive one as well
ReplyDeleteI received confirmation from Serdar Ergalu that my refund form would be pulled up and 'acted on' - this was a couple of weeks ago, after my hard copy sent to the LA office had been returned to me marked 'addressee unknown'. I received confirmation from Kevin a few weeks earlier that my refund form was being processed, after a helpful intervention by Alastair. I have not received any recent assurances along the lines King John, Chunk and Sir Nipper have described.
ReplyDeleteAs for legal action, mb4807 is correct up to a point. Investors based in an EU or EEA member state (with the exception of Denmark) could start a civil claim against GWM or Arc in their local courts under EC Reg. 44/2001 or the Lugano Convention. The difficulty lies in obtaining enforcement of a judgment against a US-based defendant. At some point it might be necessary to resort to the US courts. However, one hopes that provided GWM actually have the money, they will pay up rather than suffer the negative publicity that an adverse judgment has the potential to generate. If GWM doesn't have the money then things get more complicated.
The advantage of suing locally (I speak now from the perspective of England and Wales, and Gibraltar, where I practice as a barrister) is that you can sue in the small claims court if the claim is worth 5k or less. Those with 1 or 2 units would fall into this category. The cost of starting the claim are fixed at around £100, and the losing party is not exposed to the legal costs of the winning party, which makes it a relatively risk-free proposition for small-fry investors like myself.
If I do not receive my money by the end of October I intend to write a pre-action letter to GWM and Arc stating that I will issue proceedings in the Small Claims Court if they do not transfer my money to me. If they do not pay up, I will draft and issue a claim form. I would be happy to circulate a template of the pre-action letter and claim form to anyone interested once these are drafted. Needless to say the merits of a claim are clear cut.
Are there any lawyers in the group who are willing to lend a helping hand, or who have any views on the above?
If people don't fancy doing this independently, and prefer to instruct a firm of UK or US-based lawyers, then I'd be happy to approach some colleagues at a litigation practice in London that has links with a US firm. The US firm has an office in LA and specialises in class actions, often on a contingency fee basis.
Excellent input, Comore, partically the mention of the small claims court.
ReplyDeleteLet's hope, nonetheless, that it'll be totally unnecessary.
comore please keep me up to date with your progress as unlike others on the forum i haven't had confirmation of receipt from GWM and intend to start looking at my legal options shortly very carefully and will probably follow suit re small claims
ReplyDeleteFolks, I have removed an anonymous posting from yesterday which included a private phone number, largely irrelevant, at Arc's request.
ReplyDeleteChris, as noted above by Comore, confirmation of receipt of documents is not necessarily indication that payment will be immediately forthcoming. I think we should maintain thoughts of a collective effort on the legal front for the time being, assuming it remains necessary, which we're all very much hoping is not the case.
None of us here want to engender any bad feeling with any of the parties involved, be they Arc, North Capital or Global Wealth Management, but we have all been left dangling for a long time and are anxious to put this behind us.
Guys ive been told by Kevin that i will either be refunded or given a refund date in one week. But guess what he started telling me this around 3 weeks ago and nothing. The emails you are getting are just another way to buy time. How many people put their address on the back of the envelopes and what is the chance of a letter finding its way back from America on £1. Despite confirmation of recieving those documents they have come back. The address is fake and GWM are playing a game. Im off to the states soon so shall i report them for theft??. Has any body asked them why they still hold our money.
ReplyDeletei have 10 reservations. clearly we should pursue funds on a pay per unit basis. i just want my money back, the interest should have made kevin very comfortable over the last year. andyp
ReplyDeleteand thank you to comore, king john etc. i feel pretty powerless but there should be strength in numbers. whatever it takes. andyp
ReplyDeleteI agree that just because we have got an email saying refund being processed means nothing. I agree that if nothing comes by end of October we take some form of action. Certainly no specific date was given to me and it seems not to anyone here.
ReplyDeleteI am also a lawyer, and have a former colleague of mine now works for a large international firm on the west coast (LA). I have been in touch with him and he has done some research based on his firm's contacts and given me the name of a commercial litigator based in Delaware. I've got this detail now and very happy for us as a group to consider this post 31 October.
However, (and Comore - thanks), I might pursue the Small Claims Court option first.
I too am a litigation lawyer. I have read the postings of Comore and agree with his observations about the options. My feeling is that even paying the fee for the Small Claims type approach is probably money down the drain as I do not expect GWM to pay up just because of an English judgment unless they have the money readily available. This would still mean launching enforcement proceedings in the USA. I would be inclined at the outset to try and pursue the contingency fee financed class action in the US, either Delaware where GWM is registered, or California, where it seems to be operating. Advice on this from the US will be needed. Whether contingency fee basis is best may depend upon the estimated cost of proceedings as there is normally no recovery of your costs from the opponent in US litigation unlike in England. It might also be possible to take other steps to protect our interests in the money, but again local US advice will be needed.
ReplyDeleteFor the record I am not one of those who has received an email from GWM recently acknowledging the receipt of refund papers. I have received nothing so far. I am happy to attend a meeting in London, but agree with whoever said it was no good having it in a bar or restaurant. We need a meeting room of some sort.
KJ - agreed group action is the best way foward - i was only keeping my bases covered incase your refunds came through and mine didn't.
ReplyDelete(Admin hat on: just a reminder that comments posted under the "anonymous" handle which add nothing to the discussion or contain ANY inflammatory language I am zapping. Please select an ID. It ain't a lot to ask. We have no idea how many people these anonymous comments represent, and it's unnecessarily confusing.
ReplyDeleteAdmin hat off.)
Sirnipper said:
"I am also a lawyer, and have a former colleague of mine now works for a large international firm on the west coast (LA). I have been in touch with him and he has done some research based on his firm's contacts and given me the name of a commercial litigator based in Delaware. I've got this detail now and very happy for us as a group to consider this post 31 October."
This could be massively useful in the event. I can't imagine a better option.
Hi all, please can you add me to any mailing list emails. I had 1 unit reserved in American Resort at 2500 GBP. My email is investortuk@googlemail.com
ReplyDeleteWould be interested to keep up with any legal procedures being considered and how best to go about it. Thanks.
Done.
ReplyDeleteI'm away now for a week. I'll try and log in once a day, but I'll have a shitty computer and probably won't be able to do much in the way of sophisticated editing. I'm sure it won't be necessary, but please keep in mind my suggestions re. posting etiquette, thanks.
If things are still relatively stagnant in the next couple of weeks, my suggestion would be to start thinking seriously about Sirnipper's excellent proposition above. Seems a bit of a no-brainer.
Re the comment from mj269 above, I am an investor in the American Resort with 2 reservations. Please also include me on any group emails. I am on waitingstill@hotmail.co.uk
ReplyDeleteThanks
Hello,
ReplyDeleteI'd like to be included to the mailing list as well to receive the group emails. Invested with one reservation. My address is rlehti@hotmail.com.
-R
Sir Nipper,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your preliminary investigations. It's good to know that some of those involved have legal expertise. I am interested to contribute to any costs pertaining to a case after 31st Oct.
I have heard nothing from GWM since my application for the CMR refund was filed.
I would also like to express my intention to join any legal action against the parties involved.
ReplyDeleteWe need to ascertain if, as surely must be the case, ARC had obtained assurance from GWM that the deposits and refund option were safe despite the expiry of the original contract. My e-mails from Alastair all state clearly that the deposits were safe from their point of view and that the deadline for refund application had been extended.
If this is indeed demonstrable by ARC, then the best option would be to pursue GWM, rather than ARC through small claims. I cannot see how we can pursue GWM (Delaware) through UK small claims - can anyone enlighten me?
Guys,
ReplyDeleteI too would welcome the initiallising of any legal action. I have 1 unit reserved.
During the call back phase I was called by kevin from a mob with a Romanian prefix - so at least he does have some business in romania.....not pariculary re-assuring but all I've got!
(needless to say Ive since tried to call this number with no joy)
"We need to ascertain if, as surely must be the case, ARC had obtained assurance from GWM that the deposits and refund option were safe despite the expiry of the original contract. My e-mails from Alastair all state clearly that the deposits were safe from their point of view and that the deadline for refund application had been extended."
ReplyDeleteYeah. Silence, unfortunately, reigns supreme on this front. Has anyone had confirmation from Arc that their assurances came on the back of written assurances from Kevin & Co?
Hi KJ,
ReplyDeleteI have reserved 2 units as has a good friend. I had been dropping into the discussions on overseaspropertymall and would like to be added to any group emails being issued. We have returned our refund forms several weeks ago and heard nothing...unsurprisingly. If you can provide me your email address, I will email you with both our addresses.
Tx
SK101
Sorry.
ReplyDeletePerhaps it might have been wiser for me to provide an email address that you can add KJ. however, can I ask before I do (and excuse my naivety) why is everyone using aliases? Would you recommend it. Surely all parties to the 'contract' know that no-one has been refunded and therefore anonimity is pretty pointless. We can't possibly do ourselves any harm by being recognised, or can we?
Gerbil: English rules on jurisdiction allow you, in certain circumstances, to sue a foreign-based company in an English court. These rules even allow you to circumvent a contractual choice of law clause in certain circumstances. The procedure is not straightforward, in part because it involves serving the claim form out of the jurisdiction and ultimately, if necessary, enforcing a judgment in a foreign jurisdiction.
ReplyDeleteIt is not clear to me whether Arc had obtained the necessary assurances from GWM. This sort of information could be obtained in pre-action correspondence with Arc. My own trail of e-mails with Arc and Alastair is not conclusive on this point, and others amongst you seem to be in the same position.
It may well be that the US option suggested by SirNipper is the best way to go. I am hoping to get a view from some US lawyers later this month. The firm in question is a niche litigation practice with an office in London. The physical presence in London could be helpful as far as meetings, video-conferencing facilities etc are concerned.
Sir Nipper/ Comore - it seems that a plan is coming together. GWM has been very helpful in providing a comprehensive list of e-mail addresses due to their uninintentional indiscretion. I propose that once details are known and costs are estimated, these are circulated to all involved.
ReplyDeleteI confirm that I wouldn't intend the small claims route at all. So, once we confirm numbers of persons involved to take this forward we pursue a lawyer route. Let's wait to see what Comore gets back, and then determine if we start communication with the Delaware law firm that I have the details for or otherwise. Perhaps when kingjohn is back we get cracking on arranging a meeting for all of us.
ReplyDeleteI have to present this whole saga in detail, and in writing, for the benefit of the US lawyers. To this end, if anyone has compiled a chronology of events, perhaps as part of a letter written to Arc or GWM, it would be useful if you could post this up. We also need broad agreement on the key correspondence and documentation that we are going to refer the lawyers to. I know for a fact that I have not received all the circular e-mails issued by GWM and Arc that have been referred to in this blog and on the overseas property forum. We need to compare notes and make sure there aren't any material gaps. At the same time we don't want to overload our lawyers with every single e-mail we have received or sent on an individual basis. So we should focus on the key circular communications for now, unless anyone has a piece of individual correspondence that is particularly valuable (e.g. I have e-mails from Kevin Stillmock asserting that our deposits are being held on trust in an account bearing very low interest).
ReplyDeleteTo give me an idea of numbers, if you're interested in forming part of the US claim, please post a one-liner saying so and indicating the number of units that you have reserved.
For what it's worth, SirNipper, I may pursue the smalls claims route anyway, even if it means suing Arc for the full amount and leaving them to join GWM to the proceedings if they so wish.
I will form part of US group - in for two units
ReplyDeletePlease include me in any action.
ReplyDeleteI have 2 reservations
my email is as included in the mailing list
henleyproperty@yahoo.com
Thank you
I'm in too. I have 1 unit.
ReplyDeleteI'm in - one unit.
ReplyDeleteI commented a fair bit on the original forum and my stance has not changed from day one, I have a preference for legal action.
ReplyDeleteI want nothing less than a 100% refund plus interest....in an ideal world.
Aim for the mountain and we may hit the tree top !
Things felt wrong when Harriet started giving obtuse answers, maybe investors will remember Harriet.
I am in for two apartments.
Look forward to any meeting, sooner the better in the current climate, happy to share any costs.
Again, just the one unit for me.
ReplyDeleteDocumentation.
1) Reservation contract.
Signed by GWM and NC, and breached in every respect, primarily the purchase price but everything else into the bargain.
2) Refund contract.
Provided by GWM. Unsigned by them and very wooly language, but a clear expression (it seems to me) of the legal standing of our reservation fees.
3) Fees safety email frm Arc Property.
Curretly Arc wll not respond on the subject of the written corroboration they have from GWM, and Im starting to wonder of they havent been spctaularly negligent in this regard. Well hey, life sucks. If they assured us without an assurance from GWM, thats their problem. Im losing patience with this ducking the question.
4) Refund docs receipt email from GWM (for those who got it)
Speaks for itself.
As such, its not like we are short of valid documentation.
Scuse sloppy post, on a shitty computer right now.
I will participate when the time comes. I am in for 2 units.
ReplyDeleteI'm in for any legal adventure. I have 2 reservations in the American Resort.
ReplyDeletewaitingstill@hotmail.co.uk
Thanks
Hello, last week I got my letter returned from California ("unknown recipient"). I have one unit. I would also like to participate in legal action. You can reach me through my friend's email (who also has one unit and who has already posted on this forum) at rlehti@hotmail.com.
ReplyDeleteFYI - I emailed ARC today and received the following reply:
ReplyDeleteA message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following addresses failed:
quota exceeded:
alastair@arc-property.co.uk
Hi, I'm very glad to have just found this blog - well done King John for getting the ball rolling.
ReplyDeleteI have 2 refunds awaited and pls add me to the mailing list. I'm willing to support the options discussed.
chugger22@googlemail.com
"Ladtall said...
ReplyDeleteFYI - I emailed ARC today and received the following reply:
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following addresses failed:
quota exceeded:
alastair@arc-property.co.uk"
I received the same too this morning. Have not tried calling yet though.
I have 2 units in CM , so will consider best course of legal action
ReplyDeleteI also think we ought to consider who currently owns sufficient assets to compensate us
That can only be the Developer
Have you also noted that they are still selling CM units , I thought we had deposits on them all ?
(robin bastard)
Hi,
ReplyDeleteplease add me to email circulation. I am in for 2 units as is a friend and will happily be part of any group legal action. Email is skamd001@googlemail.com.
Thanks and I look forward to seeing justice done for everyone involved in this debacle.
MB487 said:
ReplyDelete"A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following addresses failed:
quota exceeded:
alastair@arc-property.co.uk"
It wouldn't be the first time Alastair's mailbox has gone over-quota. That said, the culture of silence isn't showing any signs of easing.
As of next week, my "official" waiting period is basically over, and I'll be happy to start pursuing the matter more aggressively.
I'd like to cut the chalf out of the mailing list, so I'm going to take all emails and send a "please respond" message to see who is live. If you get it, sorry for the nuisance but if you can simply reply - in as brief a manner as you want - then I'll keep the address in and mail out the new list of active investors. Since from the original list of 100+ emails only about 30 seem active, it seems to make sense.
I'll include everyone who's posted a request here, but I'm mindful that this blog is totally open to all, and there's the obvious possibility that not all the requests may be genuine, and that some could even be malicious. Most likely not, but to bear in mind.
Good point KJ. Was just thinking that myself reading the last couple of days' entries - with the increasing number of people wishing to be cc'd from the parallel GWM development in the US.
ReplyDeleteA full transparency of our intentions and movements to any of the 3 parties (GWM, ARC and NC) may prove to be to our disadvantage re: any proposed legal action.
Perhaps it may worthwhile forwarding any email correspondence received by the new additions from their agent/developer etc to prove their position as a genuine investor??
I think at some stage, we will have to move off this forum as a communication medium, and switch to another medium, when it comes to progression on the issue of legal action.
Yes, I had actually thought about double checking the email addresses posted here with Alastair, but Alastair seems to have fallen out of communication and it may be a total waste of time. However, I will do this.
ReplyDeleteAlthough a private forum would have been the best way to go, it's beyond my expertise. I chose Blogger because Google (the owner) is not interested in frivolous legal threats of the kind that made the property forum delete our discussion.
We can air any stuff we don't want in the public domain when we eventually get together, which I guess is going to be early November.
For the record, I received a "return to sender, address unknown" this morning. This irrespective of the fact that the address was the correct one supplied by GWM, and GWM has already acknowledged receipt of my documents anyway.
**SHRUG**
Did anyone find out any details about ARC from Companies House , that may be of use ?
ReplyDelete(robin bastard)
FYI
ReplyDeleteI chased Kevin by email for confirmation my refund request had been received.
I received the following reply:
Please note our e-mail address globalwmanagers@gmail.com
We can not take responsibility for the form provided by Arc but can advise you that mail from the Delaware office can only be forwarded to our new LA office if it was not sent via registered mail. As we longer maintain a DE office, there is no registered agent to sign and accept mail sent to DE. If you sent mail via regular post, it will eventually make its way via the postal system to our new office.
We regret the inconvenience.
Kind Regards,
Serdar Ergalu
Global Wealth Managers
Mr X - When did you receive that email? - I've been chasing for weeks now, via email, without any result whatsoever (so far)!
ReplyDeleteAny comments on what i said earlier. Does any one think it will be reporting them of theft or fraud in the US while im out there next week
ReplyDeleteLikewise i have chased constantly and only ever received auto replies - i find it strange only one person has received a different form of reply re mail delivery
ReplyDeleteShuaib said:
ReplyDelete"Does any one think it will be reporting them of theft or fraud in the US while im out there next week."
We can't yet discount the possibility that GWM has every intention of refunding our fees as agreed. Realistically, it's of course not looking very good at this point.
If GWM does NOT intend to honour the repayments, then since we have ample documentation of our entitlement this would represent theft, provable as such in a court of law. It remains unclear whether or not GWM intends to honour the repayment agreement. They have said they will do so, and aside from a bit of rather childish ranting on the overseas property forum have not indicated otherwise. The fact still remains that nobody has yet seen any money.
So, Shuaib: it's basically your call. It wouldn't hurt to do a bit of sniffing out of the situation.
mb4807 said...
ReplyDeleteMr X - When did you receive that email? - I've been chasing for weeks now, via email, without any result whatsoever (so far)!
I received the email on the 14th Oct 08.
On another matter people lets stop being overly accommodating, this is a typical British approach. I know some people do not want this to be said incase GWM are reading this but the fact is a lot of investor money is sitting in someone’s bank account gaining interest or being used on other projects whilst 'we' have been shafted now for well over a year !
The current credit situation and further subsequent delay is the wrong move.
We need to act, fast and hard now.
Please lets be realistic, what does eveyones gut tell them ? If the refund requests are not being acknowledged what makes investors think by the end of this month GMW will cough up a huge sum of money ?
At best we can expect further delay tactics - hence de-ja-vu !
"On another matter people lets stop being overly accommodating, this is a typical British approach."
ReplyDeleteWhat is your alternative? Shout and scream, piss people off, achieve nothing and give grounds for deffamation accusations? It isn't "typically British", it's sensible - but maybe that is "typically British" anyway. My own 28-day period is only just up. I cannot jump the gun. Your "gut" does not dictate how you act in these circumstances, your brain does, and my brain tells me that listening to my gut will be monumentally counter-productive.
By the way, there was a surprisingly large email response to my email confirmation message. There are about 55 live email addresses at the last count. People, it seems, just don't like talking about these things, and have by and large little interest in recovering their money. I can't figure these people at all. What a load of sheep to the slaughter.
Dude - you rock - that was articulate and motivating.
ReplyDelete"On another matter people lets stop being overly accommodating, this is a typical British approach."
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mr X however find myself committed to the October deadline. I think this was too generous but the majority ruled.
The only concern I have is, come end of month, GWM start responding only to buy some more time without actually refunding any monies.
We should be prepared for the worse case and start preparing now.
Are we any closer to a meeting date and venue ? If we start arranging a meet at month end, it could well be another two weeks before we progress, we have the Christmas and New Year period to consider.
Let not be put off be threats of legal action by GWM, one thing is certain they do not want a legal case in the limelight, the impact on its ongoing and future projects is too risky.
Well at least my comments were not deleted.
ReplyDeleteAm glad people with brains are on the team.
I appreciate you are doing us all a massive favour by setting up this forum and am off course very grateful.
However like it or not you have ended up as an integral player in directing investors to the October deadline.
All I would say is I hope now investors 'logic' will not be ever more accommodating.
Why are you all giving the developer such an easy ride
ReplyDeleteHe signed the Pre-reservation form with GWM ?
State your email address for his contact details
I would just like to counter the comments raised above that Arc Property are not responding to emails. We are responding to every email (requesting information) which has been sent directly to alastair@arc-property.co.uk. We are being copied into a large number of emails being sent to GWM and we are not responding to these as a matter of course - unless a question is raised for the specific attention of Arc Property.
ReplyDeleteIt is conceivable that the odd email may have been overlooked and if you feel that you have emailed in the last few weeks and not received a response please resend the email and I will respond ASAP.
i have one in american resort. please add me to any emails atomipommi@gmail.com
ReplyDeletemany thanks
In order to initiate legal proceedings we cannot get around meeting, do we agree on that?
ReplyDeleteTherefore, we should make preliminary plans. So far, a grand total of FOUR members have expressed willingness:
me
Ladtall
Rountable
Chris
We cannot possibly go ahead on such a weak basis.
What about Monday November 1st, err...somewhere in London? Any suggestions? Needs to be a fairly quiet environment but we don't want to be shelling out any more money than necessary. I would very much hope Sir Nipper can make it, as he's the one with west coast US legal contacts. Rountable also, and anyone with legal nouse.
Or is the weekend better for people?
Those of us contributing will be pursuing OUR claims only. So if anyone has any vague ideas of freeloading on our coattails, forget it.
Count me in for legal initiations, I have 4 reservations in CM.
ReplyDeleteHow about sending out an email from your list so as to save clogging up this blog ?
ReplyDeleteAnd prevent our aversaries from finding out our plan of action
Robin Bastard
King John - flexible - Nov 1st suits me fine - somewhere quiet any coffee establishment central London or a quiet pub if something stronger is needed !
ReplyDeleteI can make Nov 1st. Agree we need legal input/ knowledge. we can find a venue. lets agree date and attendees
ReplyDeleteHenley
I am in for a legal challenge but have 2 reservations in the American Resort and one in the Cold Mountain. Will this be a CM legal challenge as well as an AR legal challenge or are they going to be kept separate.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the AR people can wait and see how the CM people get on as the CM people seem better organised and further down the legal line.
I don't think time & place is in need of rampant secrecy, and frankly, I don't think the blog can get any more crammed. 160 or 500 comments, it's just a bit more scrolling.
ReplyDeleteWe don't have any "adversaries". I'd like to keep that kind of aggressive tone to a minimum, please.
A nice quiet bar or coffee shop would probably be ideal, unless we end up with 50 attendees, which I seriously doubt. Anyone knows any, speak up.
1st November (Saturday) is fine for me.
ReplyDeleteAs I have a journey of over 100 miles into London so I prefer a sensible meeting time, I will be driving in.
Quite pub sounds good as long as there’s no big match on, alternatively if there is only a small turnout as a suggestion John Lewis has a big restaurant near Cavendish Square?
Bugger, I thought Nov 1st was a Monday. Nevermind, I suppose weekend is going to be easier for people anyway.
ReplyDeleteI also prefer a sensible time as I have a bit of a train journey. Mid afternoon onwards suits me.
Not sure about a pub, I think a quasi-civilised environment would be needed.
But we need attendees, or there's no point. I'll do a mailshot (I'll also mail out the new, slimline list in a few days when most people will have had time to respond). If we don't physically get together, I cannot see how we can get matters like payments sorted. And I fear that most people are going to be so freaked at the prospect of meeting anonymous 'net contacts that hardly anyone will be up for this. Hope I'm wrong.
EDIT: OK, mailed everyone.
Yes I will be at any meeting that's arranged. 1st November works for me.
ReplyDeleteHi King John,
ReplyDeleteI am not based in the UK so a London meeting is not an option for me. However I am 100% behind a group legal challenge to retrieve our money.
Please keep me posted via the blog how things work out at the meeting.
Many thanks.
Nov 1st fine for me.
ReplyDeleteGuys,
ReplyDeleteI have one apartment in CM and looking for refund. I want to contribute my share towards the legal proceedings, but unfortunately, I have lost my job recently due to the financial turmoil. Any idea, how much would it cost for the legal proceedings?
I too am not based in the UK so a London meeting is not an option for me. But I too am 100% behind a group legal challenge to retrieve our money.
ReplyDeletePlease keep me posted via the blog how things work out at the meeting.
Many thanks
Hey,
ReplyDeleteI am not in the UK so unfortunatly I wont be able to attend.
However I am fully behind thelegal approach. I will put 10% of what I invested in the one apartment towards a legal challenge.
Great to see the meeting going ahead. You have my full support.
Yes I'm in for the 1st November. We have a huge investment in CM and will be pleased to contribute significantly to legal costs.
ReplyDeleteGuys by the way Arc's lawyers mail is, they have responded to mails previously...
ReplyDeleteSame as all here happy to fund legal approach. BTW are there any more such investments we can crash that are linked to GWM?
HarveyWhite@cubismlaw.com
KJ, I am not even in the UK currently, but as some others have also expressed, I am completely behind (financially) any proposed legal action. Much appreciated.
ReplyDeleteI will keep my eye on this forum for developments
Cheers
Yes - I am up for the 1st Nov. I have 2 units.
ReplyDeleteLooks like we'll have a few attendees now. I was going to suggest maybe offering two weeks' worth of dates and have people select the best, but I reckon we'll be as well off sticking with Nov ist. We can always have a followup meeting.
ReplyDeleteOh, yes:
Arc Property said:
"I would just like to counter the comments raised above that Arc Property are not responding to emails. We are responding to every email (requesting information) which has been sent directly to alastair@arc-property.co.uk."
No you are not - the above is an out and out lie. You are not responding to my emails.
I'm disappointed, Alastair. Of all the agents I've had contact with I had you down as a straight-shooter, yet you have been negligent and inefficient in ths matter, and you're negligence and inefficiency is currently costing investors the better part of seven hundred thousand pounds.
Why did you assure us our fees were secure when they clearly were not?
Why did you not see the breaching of EVERY aspect of our reservation contact as a big, fat red flag that the whole project had clearly collapsed and we were hung out to dry?
I hope you appreciate that although a handful of investors are happy to blow the money off as "experience", most are NOT.
I consider Arc Property fully liable in this, on the basis of their bogus assurances and bogus, misleading and inaccurate marketing, and I suggest we include Arc Property in our legal strategy. Their assurances of our funds' security in a legally-binding email is a powerful piece of evidence.
Bad show, Alastair. A bit of a show of good faith would have gone a long way; pity you didn't see this.
BTW, I've set up a new blog for those of you who might want to discuss the American Resort:
American Resort Issues
In the first instance,Arc are unquestionably liable.
ReplyDeleteTheir ongoing refusal to protect, inform and update their investors confirms this beyond all doubt
I also suggest that, once we start proceedings, that we consider approaching the FSA. There is alot of interest in this sort of activity given the current climate
If the resident Londoners or those familiar with London could start brainstorming venues, we'll be sorted. Not sure how many attendees to assume, maybe 15 or so?
ReplyDeleteOK, venue should be pretty much sorted.
ReplyDeleteI will mass-email a request for your confirmation of intention to attend fairly soon.
If you plan to attend, please reply and clearly say so.
If you don't plan on attending, please don't reply.
When you reply in the affirmative I will supply details of location and cost once things are sorted - it's only going to be small change. I need numbers to get the right size of venue, so if you reply in the affirmative, please be sure to attend and don't screw us around. I'll give it about a week to ensure that absentees have reasonable time to express their intentions.
Details of venue and time will not appear on the blog.
I think we should have some sort of security check, so I'll ask for some form of identitfying password, can be anything you like, childhood hero was Josiah Wedgewood, you like molesting daffodils, etc etc ad inf / nauseum. We can probably even stretch to christian name and surname initial at this point.
I'm winging all this somewhat, so sorry for any inadequacies and feel free to comment.
I prefer a secret handshake whilst wearing a furry animal on my head. Should be unique enough to stop an spies. ;-)
ReplyDeleteYeah, the masonic ironies don't totally escape me. Better to be secure, though.
ReplyDeleteHi, I would def be interested in joining in any legal action that is going ahead.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone let me know who is best to email/ email address.... can't seem to find it...sorry
many thanks
oh as a p.s - i gave the original documents to a lawyer friend of mine who said that as far as he could see, ARC were liable...
From Jeremy Ashworth ....
ReplyDeleteI have 4 units at Cold Mountain. Sorry everyone, I've been very slow getting on this blog, but I am fully behind contributing to legal action and will be there on the 1st November.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI too must apologise for not "blogging" earlier - I don't currently have a home compueter & can't blog at work.
I have 1 unit reserved at Cold Mountain.
Unfortunately I cannot make the meeting on 1st November, however I
too am behind contributing to any
legal action (or other costs)
that would need to be taken.
Before we all forge ahead with this several questions need to be asked.
1) How much would each person contribute? For example, would someone with 1 unit pay for 1 parts of the costs, whilst an investor with say 8 units pay for 8 parts?
2) In percentage terms, how much of someones total investment is each
person willing to spend on legal costs? 10%, 20% or maybe more?
3) Are GMW or ARC in a position to pay our investments back to us even if we take out legal action and win. In other words arae they solvent.
Apologies if these questions have already been asked, however they are importent. I expect they can be discussed at the meeting.
If anyone wants to attend, can they please reply to my email and not simply post it here? I'm juggling enough here already without unnecessary complications.
ReplyDeleteWe have 12 attendees to date, including two that haven't got back to me but I'm sure are attending.
has any one had any replies from GWM recently. Ive been mailing them for just over three weeks no joy
ReplyDeleteQuote: shuaib said...
ReplyDeletehas any one had any replies from GWM recently. Ive been mailing them for just over three weeks no joy
I've sent several emails to GWM since Sept 24 and I've not received a reply to any of them.
This is my first blog comment and would like to show my great appreciation to King John for all his hard work, whilst I have been sitting on my back side.
ReplyDeleteNothing really useful to add, but will certainly contribute any agreed amount for legal and other costs, just one unit. One interesting aspect is that when I last spoke to Goodson & Red (see someone's earlier blog re they are the current CM agents)in the summer, they were in full liason with GWM in the sale process of CM resort, and I noted on one site that my own reserved apartment was up for sale.
That's OK, someone had to do it.
ReplyDelete14 attendees now. I reckon that's going to be about it. Fair turnout, and I appreciate that there are geographical considerations for many people.
If you want to attend but have not responded to my email, please do so by tomorrow. I will only forward details via your email confirmation of attendance.
I've also sent several emails to GWM - but again no response. The same goes for ARC...
ReplyDeleteSlight hiatus. The rooms I was looking at don't do Saturdays (yeah, I should have checked first), to say nothing of the fact that they don't actually have a contact phone number. A bit of ringing around has yielded one option, but very expensive at £300 for two hours, and such a price is then very dependant on people actually showing up to those who do materialise and have to fork out a percentage. Many other conference rooms also don't do Saturdays.
ReplyDeleteThis may need to be rescheduled for a weekday unless a Saturday alternative can be found.
Possible alternative at £200 for 15 people (which we currently have). If more show up, there'll be space issues but it'll ease the price.
ReplyDeleteI have only just found this blog site and having just read the last couple of months of chat, am very appreciative for it.
ReplyDeleteI have recently received my signed contracts back from both ARC and GWM with 'undeliverable' on them. Please could I be included on any future emails (twainers@hotmail.com). I have only invested in one unit but, like you all, am very keen to get my money back. Thank you.
Wain, could you please take a look at the pre-reservation agreement, and quote me the street name at the top in section 1 clause 1.1? It's non-UK.
ReplyDeleteJust a security check for emails that don't appear on the original list.
By the way, the venue for 1st November is now reserved.
The following press contact also has a keen interest in these sort of situations. Again it may be worth considering
ReplyDeleteLisa Buckingham
Editor
Financial Mail on Sunday
Just so every one living in hope and waiting for their 28 days to be up. Ide like to point out my 28 days ran out around the 13 september and still no money. Infact for the last month GWM have ignored my emails as they seem to have run out of excuses and realised that by keep saying ill get it next week i wont go away. Sorry i said earlier i had passed on all the documents to my legal team in Romania but despite chasing them thet still dont have any comments. I am in the States however so as soon as i finish business ill be at the police.
ReplyDeleteI think contacting the police is worthwhile. We should try and get as much attention as possible
ReplyDeleteI noticed earlier a reference to the press - does anyone think that contacting the overseas property sections of the weekend supplements ie Times etc may be beneficial ?
ReplyDeleteCoincientally Arc are recommended agents in the Times 'Fly To Let' book - part of the reason I'm now in this mess !